Hello all,

A question came to mind as I was driving today. I am curious to see what you think.

If pagan religions/spirituality, pagan beliefs, and pagan healing practices would have flourished instead of being suppressed and slaughtered, where would we be today? How would have technological advances influenced and been influenced by pagan ways? Would science have ventured into exploring many practices considered to be conventional in the pagan world? Where would medicine be?

I imagine others might have wondered the same. I know, I am being wacky, but I just cannot help but wonder. I would love to see some feedback.

Thank you in advance.

Merry blessings,

WillowBreez

It's an interesting question.

I think that, regardless of faith, humanity is very curious and not terribly civilised -- that combination lends to a strong push for technological advancement.

Looking at it in terms of societies around the world -- both Japan and China were highly advanced civilisations and neither followed the Judeo-Abrahamic path. The Middle East also -- including prior to the advent of Mohammed.

Celtic-wise, the Welsh (who retained their Pagan identity as a nation longer than the rest of the island Celts) had a thriving language and arts orientated society with a strong herbal tradition.

I don't think the paths we've taken to get where we are would have altered much over the years if we'd stayed European, Greco-Roman, Egyptian, or Qaddesh Pagan. A lot of our advances are driven by war and disease. And the after effects of war.... The Pagans as a whole were also pretty warlike -- the Judeo-Abrahamic groups did not have the quarter on that lol Most of them brought that with them into the new faith. So I think that still would have driven it.

We may have had less of the whole anti-education mentality though -- the Middle Ages with their prejudices, their fears, and their obsessions are pretty scary. And a lot of those can be tied to Christianity. Both Islam and Judaism during those times appear to have been a bit more civilised in their attitudes towards cleanliness, learning, women, and "other" people not of the same persuasion. That fed over into Christianity when it arose in those regions traditionally non-Christian.

The obsessive and violent conversion spree the Christians went on (and remained on) was mainly a 3rd century common era evolution thanks to Constantine and the marriage he made with various church elders at the time. Prior to that the Christians were pretty quiet and unobtrusive as a whole. But when the Romans adopted Christianity they injected a lot of their conquering mentality into the faith -- makes sense. Had to make it more appealing to the stronger elements of society after all ;)

So I think the question is not so much if Christians weren't so influential...but what if the Romans hadn't been? What would have happened in the Continental and Insular Celtic areas -- centres of learning in the Ancient World. What would have happened in Greece, the Middle East, and Africa?

We as a race are violent -- but what is it about the combination of Rome and Christianity that was so toxic? And how has that affected our development emotionally and intellectually?

Here is my take on things:

No we would not be more advanced.

While I readily admit the middle ages (5th Century to 11th Century) particularly the early middle ages know as the “Dark Ages” did a lot of damage to us as a species I do not feel that it was driven solely by Christianity or the loss of Paganism.

Here is my thought pattern.

Before the fall of Rome around the 5th century we had inventions that were well advanced beyond what we thought they were. We had harnessed electricity ( Baghdad Battery ) we were using rudimentary computers (puppet shows using a wheel with pins in it that allowed a “program” to be set to make the actors/props do certain things as well as navigational tools that calculated travel) and we were performing advanced medical procedures using tools to rival or exceed our current choices.

Hell some of the things we are inventing now are turning out to be material that was discovered/invented already.
Rome fell and into the “Dark Ages” we fell. It was deemed useless and illegal to teach the working/surf class. Keep the unwashed masses uneducated and you had a malleable source of cheap/free labor. The problem was the rich and shameless of the time at some point stopped pursuing educations, even monarchs became intellectually lazy. What progress we had made became lost/forgotten and we as a species became about as smart as a box of rocks. We did not start moving forward again in a creative manner until about the 13th century.

Whether it was Christianity or not, I do feel that the main blame rested on the monarchs of the time. So in my mind it was inevitable since we as a whole tend to cause a lot of fights/wars. So I could see the masses of the Huns attacking the Picts and the same thing would have happened.

Both of you brought up interesting points about humanity and our self-destructive ways. I agree that no matter what, we would have lead wars of conquest.

Conquest is in our blood for we are never satisfied with what we have. Some still pound on their chests claiming ownership or victory. The need for greed will never change.

What has also never changed is Monarchs (today’s corporate zealots and so called public/political leaders) continuing to mess things up. Just look at politics today. I agree that the monarchs were at fault for abusing their power and ruining possibilities of continued advancement. I also find the questions, "What is it about the combination of Rome and Christianity that was so toxic? And how has that affected our development emotionally and intellectually?" interesting. My thought process is that Constantine started a spiritual plague as a means of taking over control. This shook up the Roman Empire because he caused a big diversion by altering people’s faith. Human history does show that leaders resort to claiming a higher power to control their populace. This stems from religion being used as a political tool from the beginning of civilized development in Mesopotamia to modern day governments.

Religion is definitely a handy political tool because faith is a very important trait to our species. Our principals, ideologies, and cultures are built on our beliefs. Laws are established based on commandments in bibles, Qurans, Torahs, and other holy scriptures. What is the meaning of a holy scripture? It is a document presented to the public that is to be taken for face value, so it is made “holy”, so people don’t question it. People, common folk, are like a herd of sheep who allow themselves to get pulled and pushed one way or the other.

Our herd like characteristic is what leads me to believe that we are not warlike enough. We allow so called leaders/monarchs to do what they will with our lives. We have not learned independence on an individual basis and are too afraid to go against the grain. We are dependent on our communities and society overall. People get comfortable and don’t want to shake up what they have become accustomed to; they become too dormant.

Dormancy leads to adopting beliefs that set our norms; norms that end up stealing opportunities of certain societal advancement. I always wanted to know what would have happened if our way of medicine would have been more focused on the homeopathic side rather what it has become. Today, technology and chemicals can only do so much. Doctors, at least to me, seem to limit themselves with conventional allopathic knowledge and are unwilling to explore outside their boundaries. Many a doctor I have met relies on technology so much, they miss the big picture. But, allopathic medical organizations like to keep things this way. They don’t allow homeopathic healing to ever be recognized and they mostly refuse to incorporate anything homeopathic. If they did, they’d lose a lot of money. I think this is a major factor in our society that is holding us back.

I agree that it is very difficult for people to move beyond the confines of the known. If people as a group were willing to take the next step, to truly think for themselves and take responsibility for their actions, then I think we might see real change. Society generally discourages us from independent thought, by either ignoring it or (more commonly) by punishing it. It is easier to accept what is than to change it--or even to give serious thought to the possibility of change
The groups, businesses, governments, and organized religions that run things like it the way it is--it keeps them in power. Actually, in a sense, Rome never fell--the organized power that maintains control and keeps the world on its present course is with us today. Those of us not in power are kept in our places by force if necessary, but more often by the modern equivalents of "bread and circuses". We have beer, we have fast food, we have television and the internet. These things are not bad in themselves, but if that's all we live for, then they limit us, we fail to grow spiritually, and we perpetuate the system. And any question that arises, though met by some with serious attempts to find real answers, tends to be decided by the automatic reactions of people who have given over their independence of thought to another, whether that "other" is their church, their political party, or their favorite layer-down-of-laws.
I believe that some day humanity will grow beyond its confines and accept the responsibilities that come with true independent thought--but I also believe it's going to be a while!
blessings
raeven